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Post by trashgrind on Jan 30, 2018 12:19:22 GMT -5
At the time I posted that I didn't realize there was a whole tumblr about Zach, and it's pretty fucked up. so I'm gonna back my post off a bit. But I agree, I wouldn't financially support a band that was doing something atrocious, and luckily Expire isn't a band I really listen to anymore. I just really have a hard time condemning art. something about that seems really really wrong, and under the right circumstances I can even appreciate truly horrific music. Even the most fucked up stuff like GG Allin. Also panterabread that's dope. And pretty easily passable as an original phrase. I thought it was gonna be the dudes from the band having a lemonparty
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Post by julianlozano on Jan 30, 2018 13:25:07 GMT -5
Time to throw out my Expire sweatshirt, no excuse for disgusting behavior. And those tumblr posts...
I agree with some of you, it is difficult to think that the band members were not aware and it sounds something like what happened to WOLF DOWN.
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Post by darkxempire on Jan 30, 2018 13:35:05 GMT -5
I just posted a long rant in the other thread touching on part of this topic, but more directly this about the guy and his actions.
Here I will comment on your question if one person's actions should make their art "off-limits" so to speak. Firstly, I like to think there is not one answer for every scenario. In specific, with this douche from expire/stone, from what I have read he didn't go too far to hide what he was doing from ANYONE. Apparently he held a competition with fellow band mates to see how many girls they could bang while on tour. Clearly, viewing women as some sort of competition is fucked up to begin with, but it is also what definitely fueled some of this ultra aggressive behavior. If you look at it like, "if i bang this girl I win" then yeah you are most definitely more likely to be aggressive, pushy, and rapey, and go to great lengths to "win." My point being, the other dudes in the band knew damn well that this tool was up to no good, they were involved in it too, just maybe not as aggressive. The story in particular with the girl who was trapped in her boyfriends bathroom with this scumbag trying to get away while the rest of the band was in the house is evidence enough to me that this behavior was deemed acceptable.
Now. let me digress. With a looooong amount of personal debate over the years, I remain a huge Pantera fan. I remain a huge Down fan. Phil Anselmo was a hero of mine growing up, and I have been greatly influenced by his lyrics and vocal performance. However, Phil Anselmo is a gigantic piece of shit, alcoholic, racist. As it has been stated before^^ I don't purchase anything from these bands in a way that they would benefit in some way. Do I think that the other guys in the bands knew Phil was racist, absolutely. Does that change everything that the music has done for me personally, hell no. Do I think that being racist is excusable? Absolutely not. But in my book, rape and being racist are on two different levels. I don't fuck with rapists. Period. I would fight a racist, I would kill a rapist... feel me?
So yeah I think that every situation is different. But especially in hardcore, where these normal ass kids are given this relatively huge amount and fame and attention, everyone looks up to them and sucks them off and tells them how cool their shitty little band is. This creates a monster in these people, why trust them and expect them to be any less shitty than anyone else in the world? Cuz they can play 4 chords and write catchy lyrics? Come on. Look, i wouldn't stop listening to the bands if it's really that important to you, but if ya do a little digging you could find at least a few dozen bands with the same sound and lyrical content as Expire. Just don't be surprised when you wear an Expire shirt in public to not get a weird look from someone who knows whatsup, I'm sure as shit not suprised when people are weird to me about my Pantera/Down swag
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Post by Zeke on Jan 30, 2018 16:55:14 GMT -5
I never quite drank the Expire kool-aid but I can definitely relate to this dilemma. The band that really crushed me with this was Enabler, one of the only bands I bought merch online for haha. All kinds of stuff came out from Justin's ex about how he was abusive in almost every way, and the band just ceased to exist. I used to listen to their music all the time and now it's pretty much just a memory that's forever tainted. In more of a Roman Polanski-esque example, H.P. Lovecraft has been arguably my favorite author for years. Nowadays there are many different articles that roast him for being an old-timey racist. Naturally I was crushed and appalled, but instead of throwing his books away I decided to do my own research and see how his words made me feel personally. While it was definitely disturbing, I really didn't believe that it was any more intense than something an ignorant great-grandparent might say. He believed in ridiculous, antiquated sciences that were basically passed down to him by his family, and the man was a known recluse his entire life. I will never be able to hold him in the high regard I once did, but I believe that the art he produced is spectacular enough and removed enough from those beliefs that they can still bring me joy and are worthy of critical analysis. However, if HP were alive and believed these things in 2018, buying his books would feel very wrong to me personally. I would feel like I was validating his beliefs, which is an entirely different story. Regarding the HP Lovecraft: I think the time he was alive, a lot of ideals were different and that was the norm. I can't hate on people for being racist at the end of 19th century. Like you said, if he believed those now, that would be fucked up.
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Post by trashgrind on Jan 30, 2018 17:08:45 GMT -5
Also by posting this I hope that I'm not minimizing Zach's actions, avarice can attest to how annoyingly feminist I am/ have been. I'm more just trying to see what you guys think about works people have made. I obviously am not gonna be repping Expire, and also it's not like Expire was anything revolutionary, but it's just sad because Expire was relatively in with the socially conscious crowd. Now another question is how do you feel about the bands that chose to play with Expire knowing this. Cause realistically bands spend quite a bit of time together, a tour brings bands together. The bands they played with them had to know the guy was a creep if he was this prolific. I guess another one where this applies is Burzum. Varg Vickerness is a murderer which i don't judge him for but jail also encouraged his racism. which makes me not wanna rep him. But I can't deny his genius. The man was a pioneer in black metal and he set the stage for basically everything I listen to. I Believe the guys from Gorgoroth are as well. Everyone besides the Darkthrone and Mayhem guys are basically insane in their beliefs but I still like black metal
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Post by v9733xa on Jan 30, 2018 18:17:34 GMT -5
So i then want to ask, how would this affect you if you were a friend or acquaintance of someone accused of something like this?
Obviously there are degrees, but would you end a friendship with someone over this? Or something lesser? If you found one someone had a criminal background, or a serious accusation that was never proven but seemed very plausible, would you not want that person around anymore?
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Post by Misanthropekl on Jan 30, 2018 18:34:28 GMT -5
I'll never listen to Lostprophets again and they were one of my favourite bands when I was a teenager and the first band I saw live. Not just because their legacy is tainted but because I can't hear them without thinking about the disgusting news reports I read from when Ian Watkins was convicted. Probably an extreme example though. Nah I get this, there's a long list of bands that I won't listen to because of the actions of certain members. It's an extreme example but I think it's a good one to follow. It's hard for the rest of the band who may not have known about any of what was going on but ultimately their actions do taint the music and it's meaning, especially if it's struck a chord with you.
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Post by trashgrind on Jan 30, 2018 19:09:00 GMT -5
So i then want to ask, how would this affect you if you were a friend or acquaintance of someone accused of something like this? Obviously there are degrees, but would you end a friendship with someone over this? Or something lesser? If you found one someone had a criminal background, or a serious accusation that was never proven but seemed very plausible, would you not want that person around anymore? I have had a situation like this before (obviously they don't have a tumblr chronicling their crimes and it was from what I know an isolated incident) , but i put some distance for a while. After hearing from the girl i started being friends again... but yeah i see where you're going with this
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Post by strikes on Jan 30, 2018 21:09:58 GMT -5
I think the response made my Zach just completely disregarded everything that happened, and seems to push it off as a part of life and someone's feelings got hurt, instead of the truth that it was sexual abuse. I hate the phrase "promiscuous" that was used. It makes it feel like he's proud of what had happened. In regards to the other accusations being made about Terror, Madball, Bent Life, etc, there's evidence that points to wrong doings, and those need to be addressed accordingly.
If we want to exist in a sub-culture that is going to hold ourselves to higher standards, we can't let these things trickle away. We have to hold the party accountable, and that's a lot easier to say then to do. However, I believe that completely ex-communicating people isn't ever effective. If you remove these people from here, there's no education on what they did wrong, and they lose all accountability in regards to never doing it again. You don't know if they go out in their city and do it to other people. This was a thing that existed in my city from a prominent DIY promoter that had been outed for sexual assault 4 years ago, and I've heard about them being at local DJ nights trying to pick up young girls.
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Post by panterabread on Jan 30, 2018 22:06:13 GMT -5
At the time I posted that I didn't realize there was a whole tumblr about Zach, and it's pretty fucked up. so I'm gonna back my post off a bit. But I agree, I wouldn't financially support a band that was doing something atrocious, and luckily Expire isn't a band I really listen to anymore. I just really have a hard time condemning art. something about that seems really really wrong, and under the right circumstances I can even appreciate truly horrific music. Even the most fucked up stuff like GG Allin. Also panterabread that's dope. And pretty easily passable as an original phrase. I thought it was gonna be the dudes from the band having a lemonparty It’s not as bad as I give it shit about, I’m just so particular about the work I get done that I always want my art to meet my standard
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Post by SHIRT on Jan 31, 2018 12:57:52 GMT -5
w I also struggle with this. it happened with me and my love for WHIRR when the guy said something shitty about G.L.O.S.S. and trans which ultimately destroyed the entire band. apparently it was someone not in the band that posted it but still. I mean I still love Distressor and I don't want to throw away my record. like what do you do?!? should I hate best coast now? should I hate camera shy!? so I get where your initial thought comes from trashgrind . I don't really care for expire. but id be so pissed if a band I was in was ruined because of some of the members shitty behaviors. I actually have quit bands in the past because of things similar to this.
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Post by trashgrind on Jan 31, 2018 15:00:16 GMT -5
w I also struggle with this. it happened with me and my love for WHIRR when the guy said something shitty about G.L.O.S.S. and trans which ultimately destroyed the entire band. apparently it was someone not in the band that posted it but still. I mean I still love Distressor and I don't want to throw away my record. like what do you do?!? should I hate best coast now? should I hate camera shy!? so I get where your initial thought comes from trashgrind . I don't really care for expire. but id be so pissed if a band I was in was ruined because of some of the members shitty behaviors. I actually have quit bands in the past because of things similar to this. I actually tossed my Whirr shirt. I have a 2 trans friends and I just didn't want to deal with that. But that's not gonna stop me from jamming to Junebouvier
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Post by btbam628 on Mar 7, 2018 13:54:55 GMT -5
Yeah its tough...esp after the decapitated news
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Post by ElderGoose on Mar 7, 2018 14:37:00 GMT -5
Yeah its tough...esp after the decapitated news Last I heard, the charges were dropped. Things are going to be okay.
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